Curse

Kai Nui · Sep 04, 2005, 01:21 AM // 01:21

What's the difference between a strategy and exploitation? Anet is so quick to remove things from the game that work in people's favor, so what's the difference?

powdahound · Sep 04, 2005, 01:22 AM // 01:22

It's up to them... they made the game. It's important that they try to keep things balanced.

Weezer_Blue · Sep 04, 2005, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Strategy: Using the tools available to you to make an effective build.

Exploitation: Using the tools available to you to make an effective build with no counter.

tomcruisejr · Sep 04, 2005, 01:26 AM // 01:26

strategy: requires brain
exploitation: requires fotm wtfpwnage team builds

Teh Azman · Sep 04, 2005, 01:41 AM // 01:41

I was just gonna say stop whining about your protective bond invinci monk like the rest of us...But the guys above me just explained it better.

Kai Nui · Sep 04, 2005, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Oh, I'm not complaining about that, I'm just saying in general about nerfs such as spirit spammers, chest farming, etc.

One and Two · Sep 04, 2005, 02:21 AM // 02:21

they made changes for pvp btw...which means...make a new pvp character. it starts at level 20, so nothing lost, right?

IlikeGW · Sep 04, 2005, 02:24 AM // 02:24

It's a valid question that Anet should answer. Obviously they won't as they don't seem to be a tenth as interested in the philosophy behind their game as players.

To me exploitation means insta-gankish stuff that is based on getting huge reward instantly for finding a way to push the numbers to make it work. So stuff like farming and even some builds that end up near invincible... that's exploiting. But there's a huge problem with calling people exploiters and it's that the base game usually doesn't offer decent alternatives. Where are farmers supposed to go? There's still no end game loot acquirement that works, months after the release. They started farming usually because of necessity, such as how it used to be about runes. And pvp gankers/fotm are just doing what's necessary. Skill acquirement is so bad that people all have to do the same thing because getting unified counter builds out is extremely time consuming, nigh impossible right away. So it seems all the worst problems came from Anet screwing people badly on acquirement rates. How long before that gets through to them we can only wonder.

Phades · Sep 04, 2005, 02:47 AM // 02:47

Consider the risk versus the reward involved in the method used to achieve the desired effect. Then consider if the method is straightforward with the mechanics in place or more dilluted means of working around the mechanics in place. The answer should be obvious in every instance, but if you think about if you are exploiting something, then chances are that you are in fact exploiting something.

Perishiko ReLLiK · Sep 04, 2005, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Exploitation = 8 man Mo/R Healing seed, heal area, healing spring, fertile season, symbiosis time sink builds.

Exploitation = W/Mo smite hex, condition removal, charge, sprint runner builds... while beatable with enough snares, still quite annoying to see.

Simply using a build such as the "smite" build, which is now the new "flavor of the month" is not exploiting, it is beatable... If it was super godlike and "stance/shout" based damage, then yes... but it is easily stopped.

It's easier to be a part of the crowd when you don't have a guild to use actual builds with... Can't sit there for eight hours shouting for every character you need. So, it's easier to simply change with the flow.

Anet is doing a great job at keeping up with the game.

Silmor · Sep 04, 2005, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Basically, if something seems to good to be true, it probably is.

But people love things that are too good to be true, and tend to exploit it for all its worth. ArenaNet puts in a chest that rewards players for finding it, and let it drop gold items at a decent frequency. First reaction? Milk it for all its worth, keep making runs to that chest alone until ArenaNet is forced to nerf it! Never mind the casual players, who after the consequences of this milking, the nerf, can count on the chest to drop maybe a blue item if they're lucky after the nerf, and have even more problems trying to come up with the money that apparently everyone but them has. Not your problem really - you went straight to the next best thing when the nerf hit.

Could consider that a strategy, but I'd call it a strategy based on exploitation.

Tactical-Dillusions · Sep 04, 2005, 03:00 AM // 03:00

The parent leaves the cookie jar on the table, the child sees it and takes a cookie when the parent isn't looking.
Who is to blame? The child doesn't know any better so it's the parents fault.

1) The parent left the jar there.
2) The child wasn't taught any better.

Same principles here folks except in this instance, we were told to play with the cookie jar.

Sorry Anet if we took a cookie but you gave the jar to us.

Phades · Sep 04, 2005, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Anet doesnt have to leave it there for you to keep getting at it though, so dont cry when its gone/fixed...

Legendary Battousai · Sep 04, 2005, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

Strategy: Using the tools available to you to make an effective build.

Exploitation: Using the tools available to you to make an effective build with no counter.

Exploitation[1]: The act of employing to the greatest possible advantage: exploitation of copper deposits.
Utilization of another person or group for selfish purposes: exploitation of unwary consumers.
An advertising or a publicity program.

So technically, the invincimonk and spirit spammers are exploiting if you take that definition.
But for the other definition for this game; Exploitation[2]: The act of using a glich to your advantage.

Doesnt apply to anything in this game yet. Making a build without a counter is not exploiting [definition 2], it is merely exploiting [definition 1].

So to answer the first post, most people look at definition 2 and think thats what exploitation is, arena.net looks at definition 1. "If a build is good, remove it" is seemingly their policy.

Phades · Sep 04, 2005, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Is it a glitch if there are no mechanics in place to stop it?

Legendary Battousai · Sep 04, 2005, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Is it a glitch if there are no mechanics in place to stop it?

no, a glitch is something that wasnt put in the game on purpose or you were not supposed to be able to do. The fact there were no mechanics to stop it is more of a mistake or choice from arena.net.

Kai Nui · Sep 04, 2005, 03:54 AM // 03:54

I think that the invinci monk build was a very good strategy by who ever thought it up. Whoever took that idea and used it for the soul purpose of doing UW... that's exploitation. I mean the invinci monk build was easily countered where you could just shatter enchantments. Another exploitation in this game I personally think is running in a fight. Running to escape is one thing, but having your soul strategy as running is exploitation in my oppinion.

Sanji · Sep 04, 2005, 03:58 AM // 03:58

I think that while skills that can deform the environment can be overused, but aren't always exploitive. But, that definately won't be answered by opening up a dictonary or throwing ill-fitting analogies at each other. This is something we need directly from the horse's mouth.

The real question is, is Anet changing skills because they think they are exploits or are they changing skills because they feel they are stagnanting and cheaping the environment? That'd be a Fansite Friday question I'd like to see answered without being obfuscated by customer relations double talk.

Kai Nui · Sep 04, 2005, 04:01 AM // 04:01

True, but then again invinci monk builds weren't really too useful, I personally like how they've fixed the spirits, and as for chest farming... well this game has almost no fun because of Anet trying to counter all the bots farming. The more they nerf, the more people are going to be buying gold off of ebay. It's like saying you eat because you're unhappy, and you're unhappy because you eat. We're literally having fun deprivation so we are needing to buy our gold from bots that do the tedious and annoying work for us.

a_scrawny_gnoll01 · Sep 04, 2005, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Exploitation that Anet added that no one really notices that much: running.
Make a character, run to droks, pwn noobs. Sorry to bring this up, but it is exploitation and is available to anyone with the adequate connections or pocketbooks.
Oh well, probably not going to change, but I don't like it at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

Strategy: Using the tools available to you to make an effective build.

Exploitation: Using the tools available to you to make an effective build with no counter.

Bingo, that nails the whole exploitation topic imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kai Nui

True, but then again invinci monk builds weren't really too useful, I personally like how they've fixed the spirits, and as for chest farming... well this game has almost no fun because of Anet trying to counter all the bots farming. The more they nerf, the more people are going to be buying gold off of ebay. It's like saying you eat because you're unhappy, and you're unhappy because you eat. We're literally having fun deprivation so we are needing to buy our gold from bots that do the tedious and annoying work for us.

Right now Anet is stuck in a Catch 22. Nerf this, and groups of people get pissed. Don't nerf this and the other player groups stay pissed. What do they do...?